Comments on: Poll: Should The Old South African Flag Be Banned? http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html The Blog companion to South Africans in Austin Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:33:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: David Bell http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html/comment-page-1#comment-316 David Bell Sun, 04 Jul 2010 20:06:09 +0000 http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/?p=66#comment-316 I fly the old flag when I display my South African Land Rover Series III LWB in the UK where permitted as this is the correct flag for the era it was built (1971) , I don't believe banning it would stop people from remembering the history from 1928 till 1994 and respecting the flag that there forefathers served under, you cannot change history by banning a flag and the world would be a different place without all the then commonwealth soldiers sacrifices during World War 2 and conflicts after that. I fly the old flag when I display my South African Land Rover Series III LWB in the UK where permitted as this is the correct flag for the era it was built (1971) , I don't believe banning it would stop people from remembering the history from 1928 till 1994 and respecting the flag that there forefathers served under, you cannot change history by banning a flag and the world would be a different place without all the then commonwealth soldiers sacrifices during World War 2 and conflicts after that.

]]> By: Turtler http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html/comment-page-1#comment-310 Turtler Tue, 29 Jun 2010 19:30:48 +0000 http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/?p=66#comment-310 And, finally, to quote a Holocaust survivor (a Romanian Orthodox Christian of German and Russian descent) when he spoke in favor of the continued legalization of the Swastika, "It always helps when your enemy display their allegiences in the open without camoflague or codes." And so there is even a benefit to allowly the continued usage of racist symbology even more unambiguously vile than the old flag. In short, attempting to sanitize the public sphere of "improper" or "hateful" insignea like the Europeans have tried to and the proposition to ban the flag would is both ineffective and rather counterproductive. This is not a defense of the crimes of Apartheid, only my opinion on how South Africa can continue on the road to leaving the events of those terrible years behind it. And, finally, to quote a Holocaust survivor (a Romanian Orthodox Christian of German and Russian descent) when he spoke in favor of the continued legalization of the Swastika, "It always helps when your enemy display their allegiences in the open without camoflague or codes." And so there is even a benefit to allowly the continued usage of racist symbology even more unambiguously vile than the old flag.

In short, attempting to sanitize the public sphere of "improper" or "hateful" insignea like the Europeans have tried to and the proposition to ban the flag would is both ineffective and rather counterproductive. This is not a defense of the crimes of Apartheid, only my opinion on how South Africa can continue on the road to leaving the events of those terrible years behind it.

]]> By: Turtler http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html/comment-page-1#comment-309 Turtler Tue, 29 Jun 2010 00:31:40 +0000 http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/?p=66#comment-309 This is not a defense of Apartheid nor several of the parties that fly this flag, nor a condemnation of those who suffered and often perished under the jackboot of oppression. To those people, their trauma and suffering can never be fully repaid, nor can the pain they endured be scratched from the history books. But this is a defense of one of the fundamentals of a free society: Freedom of Speech, The best safeguard for South African liberty is not fighting flags as the Europeans have done but confronting and discrediting the very ideas behind them. And as one Holocaust Survivor (a Romanian Freemason) told me when supporting the legality of the Swastika, "It always helps when your enemies show their allegience openly without codes or camoflague." This is not a defense of Apartheid nor several of the parties that fly this flag, nor a condemnation of those who suffered and often perished under the jackboot of oppression. To those people, their trauma and suffering can never be fully repaid, nor can the pain they endured be scratched from the history books. But this is a defense of one of the fundamentals of a free society: Freedom of Speech, The best safeguard for South African liberty is not fighting flags as the Europeans have done but confronting and discrediting the very ideas behind them. And as one Holocaust Survivor (a Romanian Freemason) told me when supporting the legality of the Swastika, "It always helps when your enemies show their allegience openly without codes or camoflague."

]]> By: Turtler http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html/comment-page-1#comment-308 Turtler Tue, 29 Jun 2010 00:31:34 +0000 http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/?p=66#comment-308 In addition, I must note that the flag is not merely a symbol of apartheid in the same vein as the Nazi one was. For one, the white supremacists this ban is supposed to target often hate it due to "Boer pride" and its association with Britain, while Blacks and others who support closer ties with the Commonwealth often do carry it or various "purified" variations (which again brings upon the question of where would this ban legally stop). To say nothing of the fact that several Blacks died honorably in combat as volunteers under this flag in WWII and the Korean War, the former before the advent of apartheid at all and the latter when it was slightly worse than the American South's Jim Crow Laws. In addition, I must note that the flag is not merely a symbol of apartheid in the same vein as the Nazi one was. For one, the white supremacists this ban is supposed to target often hate it due to "Boer pride" and its association with Britain, while Blacks and others who support closer ties with the Commonwealth often do carry it or various "purified" variations (which again brings upon the question of where would this ban legally stop). To say nothing of the fact that several Blacks died honorably in combat as volunteers under this flag in WWII and the Korean War, the former before the advent of apartheid at all and the latter when it was slightly worse than the American South's Jim Crow Laws.

]]> By: Turtler http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html/comment-page-1#comment-307 Turtler Tue, 29 Jun 2010 00:25:52 +0000 http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/?p=66#comment-307 And besides, iif you criminalize this flag, where do you stop? Hate speech laws and the like are a very slippery slope that even the most well intended force a democracy into walking a careful tightrope on the issue. Nobody is that sad when Neo-Nazi scum are criminalized, but when they are criminalized for things like showing a given symbol, what would stop the government from potentially expanding it to criminal anything else? Only well-intenioned people. Who are not always the ones in power. And since any and every free nation and especially its citizens must guard for the possibility that an unscrupulous power could one day be voted in and thus the balances of power and the sanctity of legal rights must be shored up, it is generally not worth the risk to dangle over that slippery slope, regardless of the quality of one's rope or one's skill in balancing. And besides, iif you criminalize this flag, where do you stop? Hate speech laws and the like are a very slippery slope that even the most well intended force a democracy into walking a careful tightrope on the issue. Nobody is that sad when Neo-Nazi scum are criminalized, but when they are criminalized for things like showing a given symbol, what would stop the government from potentially expanding it to criminal anything else? Only well-intenioned people. Who are not always the ones in power. And since any and every free nation and especially its citizens must guard for the possibility that an unscrupulous power could one day be voted in and thus the balances of power and the sanctity of legal rights must be shored up, it is generally not worth the risk to dangle over that slippery slope, regardless of the quality of one's rope or one's skill in balancing.

]]> By: Turtler http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html/comment-page-1#comment-306 Turtler Tue, 29 Jun 2010 00:19:02 +0000 http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/?p=66#comment-306 As horrifying as Apartheid was (I myself visited some of the "Black Homelands" and was harassed by BOSS a few times, and I by no possibility got anywhere near the worst of it), it is generally a mistake to circumscribe any given symbol, no matter the circumstances save for briefly in a time of war. By focusing laws on symbols rather than on people- who are the only ones who can stand trial for their actions- one makes the same mistake many in Europe have made in believing Neo-Nazis would all be crushed if they just banned the Hakenkruz. Which turned out to be not the case: like viruses, the Neo-Nazis just evolved and adapted to survive by changing their symbols and rhetoric more quickly than the shakey legal bureaucracy could ever keep up. This would doubtless wind up the same. As horrifying as Apartheid was (I myself visited some of the "Black Homelands" and was harassed by BOSS a few times, and I by no possibility got anywhere near the worst of it), it is generally a mistake to circumscribe any given symbol, no matter the circumstances save for briefly in a time of war. By focusing laws on symbols rather than on people- who are the only ones who can stand trial for their actions- one makes the same mistake many in Europe have made in believing Neo-Nazis would all be crushed if they just banned the Hakenkruz. Which turned out to be not the case: like viruses, the Neo-Nazis just evolved and adapted to survive by changing their symbols and rhetoric more quickly than the shakey legal bureaucracy could ever keep up. This would doubtless wind up the same.

]]> By: Shireen Flatt http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html/comment-page-1#comment-303 Shireen Flatt Fri, 25 Jun 2010 19:01:07 +0000 http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/?p=66#comment-303 I grew up in South Africa and associate the old flag with my country. The old flag has prestige while the new one is ugly and looks similar to so many other flags, just with other colours. Changing the flag has not helped to change the country. There is more crime than ever and the present government is going to ruin what was a wonderful country in which to grow up. I live in Canada and miss South Africa very, very much! I also love the old anthem - "Die Stem" while the new one is not tuneful and and hard to pronounce properly. I hope South Africa never changes its name because I will certainly never call it by any other name. I grew up in South Africa and associate the old flag with my country. The old flag has prestige while the new one is ugly and looks similar to so many other flags, just with other colours. Changing the flag has not helped to change the country. There is more crime than ever and the present government is going to ruin what was a wonderful country in which to grow up. I live in Canada and miss South Africa very, very much! I also love the old anthem – "Die Stem" while the new one is not tuneful and and hard to pronounce properly. I hope South Africa never changes its name because I will certainly never call it by any other name.

]]> By: Florian http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html/comment-page-1#comment-299 Florian Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:55:06 +0000 http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/?p=66#comment-299 though not beeing a south african, I've been to SA many times in the 90s.. and so I still feel attached to the oranje-blanje-blou.. though not beeing a south african, I've been to SA many times in the 90s.. and so I still feel attached to the oranje-blanje-blou..

]]> By: joseph chibi http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html/comment-page-1#comment-282 joseph chibi Sat, 08 May 2010 14:12:33 +0000 http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/?p=66#comment-282 democracy indeed allowed for different views aven singing tge songs of struggle. i dont understanding how people think because people were re4cently crying for the songs sang by the youth league president and now after the death of terreblanche there are people who are raising the old flag of s.a. If thats how you people reminds yourselves of your forefathers who oppressed our(blacks)forefathers then you reminding us of the slvery days. The flag should be banned now we have a new flag in the new s.a which is the rainbow colours democracy indeed allowed for different views aven singing tge songs of struggle. i dont understanding how people think because people were re4cently crying for the songs sang by the youth league president and now after the death of terreblanche there are people who are raising the old flag of s.a. If thats how you people reminds yourselves of your forefathers who oppressed our(blacks)forefathers then you reminding us of the slvery days. The flag should be banned now we have a new flag in the new s.a which is the rainbow colours

]]> By: SIPHAMANDLA http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/2009/06/should-the-old-south-african-flag-be-banned-66.html/comment-page-1#comment-281 SIPHAMANDLA Sat, 08 May 2010 13:58:58 +0000 http://www.sa-austin.com/blog/?p=66#comment-281 THE FLAG SHOULD BE BANNED. TODAY IN SOUTH AFRICA WE HAVE A PROBLEM BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE ANC MEMBERS WHO ARE SINGING THE OLD SONGS OF STRUGGLE. THOSE SONGS ARE THE WAY IN WHICH WE REMIND OURSELVES WHERE WE COME FROM AND THE FLAG IS A SYMBOL OF OPPRESSION TO ME THE FLAG SHOULD BE BANNED. TODAY IN SOUTH AFRICA WE HAVE A PROBLEM BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE ANC MEMBERS WHO ARE SINGING THE OLD SONGS OF STRUGGLE. THOSE SONGS ARE THE WAY IN WHICH WE REMIND OURSELVES WHERE WE COME FROM AND THE FLAG IS A SYMBOL OF OPPRESSION TO ME

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